Thursday, April 7, 2016
Conversation #1 ---- Group E
On p. 131,Macbeth notes that, "From this moment, The very firstlings of my heart shall be the firstlings of my hand." Comment on how Macbeth thinks about the relationship between his heart and his hand. Raise questions about how this illustrates a core part of his personality or a change in his personality. As you read beyond this scene discuss how this statement affects later events in the play.
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Macbeth realizes that in order to be successful, he must stop thinking before he does an action. If an idea comes to mind, or a firstling of his heart, he must act upon it straight away, or the firstling of his hand. Do you guys think this is a dangerous decision?
ReplyDeleteI think this is a dangerous decision and a bad habit of Macbeth. It seems as if as soon as he gets the idea to do something, he really puts his mind to it, and without thinking of the possible outcomes. For instance, when Macduff flees England, Macbeth's initial suspicion is that Macduff is guilty. This results in the immediate murder of Lady Macduff and her children.
DeleteSimilarly, as the story progresses, Macbeth becomes more paranoid and more insane. I believe this is a factor in why his decision making has become so preposterous and unfounded. As odd as this may seem, I see a similarity between this and some TV shows about criminals' experiences as fugitives. In the beginning, they are smart about their choices, but later on, they become fearful and the effectiveness of the decision making decreases.
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DeleteUsually when we discuss how people make decisions, we compare the heart, or feelings, to the brain, or logical reasoning. Here, Macbeth discusses his heart and his hand, overlooking his brain, which to return to Zach’s point, demonstrates how he neglects the possibilities of consequence. His impulsiveness, although helpful in the beginning, turns out to be his fatal flaw. Previously, this trait allowed him to be a valiant soldier by blocking out thoughts that would prevent him from obeying orders. However, in the end, we know that this drives his overconfidence, and eventually, factors into his death. The witches tell him, “The power of man, for none of woman born, shall harm Macbeth” (125), and falsely lead him to believe that he is invincible. They know he will forget to consider other possibilities, such as Caesarean sections, or the way in which Macduff was birthed. The most interesting of it all is that he thinks that starting to act without thought is a drastic change, implied by his comment “from this moment” (131), when in reality, he has not changed at all.
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DeleteOn page 99 and 100, Macbeth states, "Then comes my fit again. I had else been perfect. Whole as the marble, founded as the rock..."The fit, or his stress and anxiety, was caused by all the thinking he had to do, since many of his actions, like murdering King Duncan, were against his morals. I feel that Macbeth chose the path of impulsive decision making to lessen his anxiety and stress leading up to those unfortunate situations of him killing close ones.
DeleteI definitely think that this is a dangerous decision, not only because he is essentially ignoring his conscience and just killing anyone who comes to mind, but more importantly because it shows that he is impulsive and hasty with his decisions. However, I think the reason why this was a necessary decision for Macbeth to make was because he was so scarred by his killing of Duncan and the terrible thoughts he had after the killing, that he did not want to go through all that pain and suffering again. Referring back to my other comment about the motif on hands, Macbeth mentions this after killing Duncan when he says, "Will all great Neptune's ocean wash this blood clean from my hand?" (p. 59), which shows that he was really uncomfortable with killing Duncan, and he knew the only way he would be able to continue killing innocent people was by becoming more impulsive.
DeleteIt's definitely a dangerous decision. His decision making process devolves into impulsivity in which he doesn't think through his decisions. As others have said, he sought to attack Macduff's family when he had to concrete evidence if Macduff was a traitor to him or not. Macduff merely retired to his castle instead of going to the coronation.
DeleteHad Macbeth been less impulsive I think that he would have stood a better chance against the forces united against him. Macbeth even says "Our castle's strength will laugh a siege to scorn" (177). Yet, he decides to meet Malcolm in the field due to his "prophecy."
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ReplyDeleteI believe all of these great examples of how Macbeth is impulsive and doesn't think of his actions really solidifies a differences between the responsibilities of a leader and a follower, a citizen or thane of Scotland in this case. Towards the beginning of the story, as a thane, Macbeth does not have power equivalent to that of a king. This means the reckless decisions he makes do not have large scale, or national, impact. Later on when he is king, Macbeth's choices emanate extensively throughout a greater number of people. I believe this is why his hasty decisions become more impactful and noticeable. Essentially, this helped me understand that the well known saying "with great power comes great responsibility." After gaining a significant amount of power, Macbeth's levels of responsibility increased as well. He now has to take the feelings and futures of others as well as his when making dramatic choices, because these are now choices for the entire country.
ReplyDeleteI definitely agree with this. In the beginning Macbeth isn't the leader of the army, Duncan is. Macbeth is a soldier, and in the heat of battle a soldier isn't concerned about the battle's strategy ten days from now, he's concerned about the present. He's thinking with his gut, because that's what he must do as a soldier. And as a soldier, this thinking pays off as Macbeth emerges victorious, mounting Macdonwald's head on a stake.
DeleteHowever, as a leader Macbeth is weaker as he still has the thought process of a soldier. He isn't thinking about the future still, only about the present.
Macbeth seems to think that his heart is what makes all of his decisions, and his hand is the one that carries those actions out. A recurring theme in the play are hands and how they symbolize action and 'doing the deed'. When Macbeth is deciding whether or not to kill Duncan, he has a hallucination and says, "Is this a dagger which I see before me, the handle toward my hand? Come, let me clutch thee" (p. 51). Macbeth is more than capable physically to kill Duncan, but he cannot quite bring his heart to the same conclusion. When Macbeth says that "From this moment, The very firstlings of my heart shall be the firstlings of my hand" (p. 131), he makes a promise to himself that he will no longer dwell over situations for too long, in fear that the more he thinks about killing someone, the less likely he is to actually do it. The reason Macbeth forces himself to act on impulse is because in his heart, he knows that all the killing he is doing in order to fulfill his prophecy is in no way justifiable; this demonstrates that Macbeth is doubtful of himself and his ability to make good decisions. In what ways is Macbeth's decision to, essentially, kill without hesitation, similar or different to his personality at the beginning of the play?
ReplyDeleteTo expand on the hand motif, not only does it affect Macbeth, but it also affects his wife. Initially, Lady Macbeth was closer to her hand than her heart, while he was closer to his heart. Although he was already predisposed to impulsiveness, she changed him, coaxing it from its cage and letting it rage freely. He, however, changed her as well, transferring his anxiety to her. After the murder of King Duncan, Lady Macbeth obsessed over washing her hands and removing the spots of blood, demonstrating the early consequences of making hasty decisions, without much forethought.
DeleteThat's great - I totally forgot about Lady Macbeth and her obsessive hand-washing! I also recall that when Duncan announces that Malcolm will be the heir to the throne, Macbeth says "Stars, hide your fires; Let not light see my black and deep desires: the eye wink at the hand; yet let that be, which the eye fears, when it is done, to see" (p. 29). Even from the very beginning, Macbeth seems to have a love-hate relationship with his hands, loving that they have so much power but also hating that they have so much power; kind of like a double-edged sword.
Delete**CONVERSATION 2**
ReplyDeleteMalcolm tells Macduff that if he were to become King, he would be a terrible ruler and with "all the particulars of vice so grafted that, when they shall be opened, black Macbeth will seem as purse as snow, and the poor state esteem him as a lamb, being compared with my confineless harms" (p. 143). Malcolm was trying to see what reaction he would get from Macduff if he said that what wicked things Macbeth has done as ruler would pale in comparison to what Macduff would do if he were King. Malcolm also says that "there’s no bottom, none, in my voluptuousness. Your wives, your daughters, your matrons, and your maids could not fill up the cistern of my lust" (p. 143). Malcolm states that there is no end to his sexual desires, and none of the women would be able to satisfy his never-ending lust. Lust is generally a dark and secret feeling when it comes to love, which further gives Macduff the impression that Malcolm would be a terrible ruler.
Macduff establishes his sadness about Malcolm's remarks when he says "Fit to govern? No, not to live.—O nation miserable, with an untitled tyrant bloody-sceptered, when shalt thou see thy wholesome days again, since that the truest issue of thy throne by his own interdiction stands accursed, and does blaspheme his breed" (p. 147). Macduff is overwhelmed with despair and a sense of hopelessness for Scotland, to have such a virtuous leader like Duncan and then be subjected to Macbeth as ruler, and now possibly Macduff. Macduff also establishes his loyalty to Scotland when he finally has had enough of Malcolm's words and bursts out, saying "O Scotland, Scotland!" (p. 145). When Macduff says that, it shows that his intentions are for the greater good of his country and not for any other reason.
When Macduff passes Malcolm's test, it helped both people gain trust and respect for each other. It obviously helped Malcolm trust Macduff because he knew that he didn't have any other intentions other than to defeat Macbeth and help his country regain its former glory. Malcolm's test also shows to Macduff that he is a cunning and capable man, and Macduff gains respect for Malcolm as a person and knows that he is fit to be a king.
Do you guys think it was necessary for Macduff to go through the lengthy test in order to test Malcolm's integrity? If so, why?
I think it was necessary for Macduff to go through the test. If Macduff didn't undertake it I feel like Malcolm definitely wouldn't be able to trust him. After all, almost everybody (I feel) wants more, how do we know Macduff won't just betray Malcolm and take control of Scotland for himself? The test makes it certain to Malcolm that Macduff can be trusted with the future of Scotland.
DeleteIn most cases, it was necessary for Macduff to go through this lengthy test. Malcolm could of just gone up to Macduff and asked him whether is loyalty was to Scotland, Macbeth, or something else. However, in having this conversation, the answer came out naturally; Macduff is loyal to Scotland, as Macduff says on page 145, "O Scotland, Scotland." This answer came out in a truthful, innocent manor. Macduff proceeds to say, "O nation miserable, With an untitled tyrant bloody-sceptered, When shalt thou see thy wholesome days again,"(147). Malcolm not only receive Macduff's loyalty stance, but his tru view of the ruling to Macbeth. Macduff believes Macbeth to be a tyrant; one who is bringing the nation down.
DeleteI think it is important to point out the weather and animal comparisons in the first quote you, Haofeng shared. I find humor in his statement as both snow and lambs often symbolize gentleness, purity, and innocence, while we know that at this time, completely contrasts with reality.
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DeleteI think the test was absolutely necessary for both Malcolm and Macduff to build, as you, Sam pointed out, “natural” trust in each other. Loyalty is a very important motif in this play: Macbeth kills treacherous Macdonwald, and in turn is promoted to Thane of Cawdor (something funny - both thanes of Cawdor plot against King Duncan, and eventually pay with their lives), until he betrays Duncan and becomes king himself. This follows along Shakespeare’s traditional storyline in which he uses the Chain of Being to show peace turn to chaos and then restore itself. It reinforces the common belief of the era: God is always good and therefore, justice in his name is always served. Malcolm requires Macduff to prove his loyalty to his country before he allies with him, which unintentionally also demonstrates his own dedication to the cause as he went to such an effort to create a clever, and extensive, test. This process was necessary to confirm how well they would be able to communicate and cooperate with each other, and therefore, defeat Macbeth.
DeleteEmma, I never noticed the point you made about how both thanes of Cawdor plotted against King Duncan. I believe it to be intentionally done. In addition, fate seems to almost be replaying itself. The thane of Cawdor is hunger for power, so they plot against the king which ultimately lands themselves being killed. However, with the actions of the original thane of Cawdor, it is a little more direct since his actions of rebellion caused him to be sentenced to execution, as it states on page 21, "Who was the thane lives yet, But under heavy judgment bears that life Which he deserves to lose."
DeleteFate and faith are such influential themes in Shakespeare's work that I agree nothing seems to be a coincidence. I really like your point, Sam about the directness of the first thane of Cawdor's death because it demonstrates that during times of peace, everything is in black and white and that there is only good or bad with nothing in between. Duncan was a good king that carried out God’s wishes, so it was obvious that those who betrayed him, the bad, deserved death. However, in times of chaos, things start to become very ambiguous. Macbeth’s gain to throne is so unclear because good people die while the bad seem to rise. I think Shakespeare is saying that it takes so much more to restore peace than it does to disrupt it, but in the end, peace always wins.
DeleteEmma, I can understand where your thinking that peace always wins comes from (chiefly the fact that Malcolm, the rightful heir to the throne, ends up as king), but I can't help but think that Shakespeare would not think that peace would always prevail- indeed Malcolm became king, but it came with the price of so many deaths throughout the play: Duncan, Banquo, Lady Macduff and her son are a few that come to mind. Instead, I feel like Malcolm's closing remarks: "so thanks to all at once and to each one, whom we invite to see us crowned at Scone" (p. 191), seems to demonstrate a sense of closure rather than peace. Another one of Shakespeare's works that comes to mind that doesn't necessarily end peacefully, but rather with closure, is "Romeo and Juliet", where both Romeo and Juliet end up dead (not very peaceful in my opinion), but their deaths are a sense of closure from all the confusion and misunderstanding throughout the play.
DeleteMacduff conveys his loyalty to Scotland by saying that he and Malcolm
Deleteshould help defend Scotland. He claims this is a better use of their time than crying over a dead family. However, when it comes to Malcolm being the next king, he does not seem to confident or keen with that idea. Multiple times, he puts himself down and speaks on how he would not make a good leader.
For instance, Malcolm states how greedy he is and that if he were king, he would manage to steal all the jewelry from the thanes. "In my most ill-composed affection such A stanchless avarice that, were I king,I should cut off the nobles for their lands, Desire his jewels and this other’s house" (145). Malcolm believes that he would be such a bad leader that he would make Macbeth seem great.
Personally, I believe that Malcolm is simply nervous about taking this difficult job. He wants to serve his country the best he can. This reminds me of most kids before a test. Although they are totally ready and know an immense amount of the material, they always point out the few things they do not understand and make a big deal out of them.
I feel like Malcolm was only testing Macduff when he says that he would take all the jewelry from the thanes. Afterall, when he knows that Macduff will be loyal he says "I am yet unknown to a woman, never was forsworn." (147). By this I think it means that he's a very "pure", "good" person.
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